Re: [Introspector-developers] Re: WIN32 compilation, the spirit of GNU software.

[James Michael DuPont <mdupont777 yahoo com>]

Obviously I will have to talk about the GPL again to 
answer this mail.

Please feel free to call me antisocial, troll-like, pedantic and also
raving mad, as well as criticize my bad spelling in this mail. It does
not change the facts at hand at all.

You will find my interpretation of the GPL, the GNU manifesto, the GPL
faq and the GNU webpage following in the mail.

Please ignore it if you dont care about my personal opinion on this
matter. It is not meant as an accusation or allegation to anyone.

The gnu manifesto describes the dependancy on one vendor or person can
only be alleviated by having FULL source code.

Remember that the situation the DIA is in, where one person decides to 
boycott the distribution of binaries, is ONLY a problem if you do not
live up to the GPL. 

If you accept binaries in your project that dont have the FULL source
code distributed in the same place as the binaries, and not all the
build directory structure, then you make it hard to reproduce the
binary. This is why the GCC and other GNU projects have stringent
requirements for thier projects, to avoid the situation that you are
in.

If you had all the sources and the scripts to compile them that were
used to create the binaries that you are distributing, then we would
have NO PROBLEM AT ALL.

Think about that, think about where the problem is. 

I am just pointing out the problem and trying to get the sources as
described in the GPL. 

Read the links I sent you. 

You may not aggree with this, but also look how cygwin does the port :
Binary + original source code + Diff to build + environment is all in
one place. That is what is needed for the DIA port.

My comments follow :
--- Lars Clausen <lrclause@cs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, James Michael DuPont wrote:
> >  --- Cyrille Chepelov <cyrille@chepelov.org> schrieb: > Le Thu, Aug
> 22,
> > 2002, à 10:08:58PM +0200, James Michael DuPont a
> >> écrit:
> >> 
> >> > Ok, so people do build windows from cvs? Anyone out there who
> has?
> >> 
> >> Yes. Someone whom you've disgusted from distributing binaries
> >> anymore.
> > I mean someone besides hans.
> > 
> > Has anyone here ever built it? How much time has been wasted from
> > people besides myself who want to help?
> > 
> > What about from scratch,without any dlls?
> > did even he ever built it from scratch? 
> 
> Why would you ever want to build it from scratch, without any dlls? 
> We can
> hardly be required to provide build scripts for the libraries that
> Dia
> requires.  I don't build GTK from scratch on Linux, why should I?  

To port it to mingw. To reproduce the work hans has done.
To understand the source code. This is the spirit of GNU.

see :http://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.html
----------------------------------------------------------------
Complete system sources will be available to everyone. As a result, a
user who needs changes in the system will always be free to make them
himself, or hire any available programmer or company to make them for
him. Users will no longer be at the mercy of one programmer or company
which owns the sources and is in sole position to make changes. 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Here, complete is the word. We are not at the mercy of one person to
"run away with the ball". That means if one person decides not to
produce binaries anymore, we can produce them because we have the
COMPLETE SYSTEM SOURCE CODE, all the sources of all the components that
are not part of the OS. 

Again the GNU manifesto :
----------------------------------------------------------------
If your business needs to be able to rely on support, the only way is
to have all the necessary sources and tools. Then you can hire any
available person to fix your problem; you are not at the mercy of any
individual. With Unix, the price of sources puts this out of
consideration for most businesses. With GNU this will be easy. It is
still possible for there to be no available competent person, but this
problem cannot be blamed on distribution arrangements. GNU does not
eliminate all the world's problems, only some of them. 
----------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, again, we need *ALL* the sources. 

now see : http://www.gnu.org/gnu/thegnuproject.html
----------------------------------------------------------------
You have the freedom to modify the program to suit your needs. (To make
this freedom effective in practice, you must have access to the source
code, since making changes in a program without having the source code
is exceedingly difficult.) 
----------------------------------------------------------------


See section 3 of the GPL : 
----------------------------------------------------------------
The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source
code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any
associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control
compilation and installation of the executable. However, as a special
exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that
is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the
major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system
on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies
the executable. 
----------------------------------------------------------------

"is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the
major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system"

libiconv, gettext, glib and gtk are distributed with debian and are
easy to compile.  Under windows it is a nightmare!
The port to windows needs all of that this is very clearly covered by
the GPL.

----------------------------------------------------------------
If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering access
to copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to
copy the source code from the same place counts as distribution of the
source code, even though third parties are not compelled to copy the
source along with the object code. 
----------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE : "from the *same* place counts as distribution of the source
code"
That means you have to put the sources in the same place as the
executables, my asking of hans for the sources of the binaries is
completly legitimate.

The faq says :
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#AnonFTPAndSendSources
----------------------------------------------------------------
The sources you provide must correspond exactly to the binaries. In
particular, you must make sure they are for the same version of the
program--not an older version and not a newer version. 
----------------------------------------------------------------


The GPL faq says :
-----
> 
> >> You misattribute your inability to compile the
> >> package
> > 
> > The lack of the source code of the binaries that are distributed.
> > the lack of the non system library source code that is needed to
> > produce the exe being distributed with the exe.
> > 
> >> to an alleged deliberate retention of files (so far you have
> failed
> > 
> > never said that.
> 
> You're saying it in the very same post.

What am I accusing him of? Please show me my accusations and you will
get an apology.

if accept and promote binary distros that dont live up to the GPL FAW
guidelines, then you are dependant on one persons feelings. 

That is where the problem is coming from, not from me.

> 
> [Long ranting post deleted]
> 
> You're not helping anyone with this.  The things that Hans use to
> build the
> Windows Dia are in CVS, the installer source is at sourceforge, both
> easily
> found from the Dia page.  All you've done so far is make it *more*
> difficult for people to get Dia under Windows.  I hope you're happy.

If you provide the sources for the Windows port, I will build them.
Otherwise I am working on the mingw port. I am not making anything more
difficult for anyone.

Regards,

mike

=====
James Michael DuPont
http://introspector.sourceforge.net/

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